Lives of Mediocrity?

I have friends who have left the mormon church who stay up on all things mormon. I'm glad they do, since I have no desire to. Because of their diligence, I actually read an Ensign article this month. President Monson is the one given credit for this piece that makes people like me cringe.

Cringe

I would like to tell my mormon family and friends why this article and ones like it make me and others who have left the mormon church cringe.

1. A quote from the Ensign article, "the need to rescue our brothers and sisters who have, for one reason or another, strayed from the path of Church activity 

Mr. Monson then goes on to ask what mormon member's responsibility is to *rescue* us. First, the mormon church believes very strongly in free agency, and as such, those us who have used our free agency to leave the mormon church do not want our agency infringed upon by having people attempt to force or influence us back into an organization we no longer wish to be a part of. We left of our own free will. We studied our way out, we anguished our way out. Please do not minimize our agency or our choice by thinking you can pray us back in, or love bomb us back in.

2. "There are, of course, others who need rescue. Some struggle with sin while others wander in fear or apathy or ignorance. "

 I can assure my mormon family and friends that this is false. Profoundly false. We do not struggle with sin. We have completely redefined our world so we no longer define our world the same way you do. The definition of sin is this, 'A wilful violation of a religious principle'  dictionary  We no longer believe in the same religious principles that you do. Where we once believed that drinking coffee was a sin, we no longer do. Where we once believed that taking our garments off was a sin, we no longer do. We are not sinning, we have just stopped believing in the same religious principles that you do.

Just as we do not believe in the Hindu religion, and therefore we do not believe it a violation to eat beef, we do not believe in the mormon religion and we therefore do not believe it a violation to  drink coffee, tea or alcohol. Just as we do not believe in the Muslin religion, and therefore we do not believe it a violation to cover our hair, we do not believe it a violation to wear tank tops, bikinis, or shorts.

Although we understand that you believe there is only one true church, we no longer believe this. We understand you see us as lost and wandering in fear, apathy or ignorance, but we do not see ourselves as this. What we see is that we have opened our minds to new paths, new ways of thinking, new ways of seeing the world. We see now that we were rigid in our understanding and beliefs and we are now free to choose new paths and views and read things that were closed to us before. We feel a sense of freedom that we didn't feel before. We understand now how chained and closed off our minds were.

3. Mr. Monson then quotes a letter from a man who desires to come back to church. Why does Mr. Monson make the assumption that all people who leave are exactly like this man? One anecdotal experience does not translate to all of us. We are not reaching out to the church, to church leaders, or to our family. We want to be left alone. We have made this perfectly clear. We do NOT want to be called to repentance, we do NOT want to be love bombed, we do NOT want conference talks mailed to us, emailed to us or posted to facebook. We do NOT want the missionaries sent to our door or to us on facebook. We want our agency respected.

4. Mr. Monson then makes an analogy between those of us who have willingly left the church and a picture of a man in a boat trying to get back to his family on shore. First of all, we are not lost, we chose to leave a controlling institution that we do not believe in. If we are at sea, this is modern times where we have modern navigational tools at our disposal, including GPS, compasses, radar, sonar and a good captain would plot out his trip and know what kind of weather he may run into. In fact, there are so many modern navigational tools available to boat captains, that most light houses are not used anymore. We have NOT left our families and we do NOT love them less. Please stop implying that our families are left behind. We left the church, not our loved ones.

5. "The less active can’t long rest content with mediocrity once they see that excellence is within their reach."

 Really? Those of us who have left are living lives of mediocrity? Is that really what you think of us? We are mediocre and you are excellent? This attitude of superiority is a big part of why we left...do you not see that? You view yourselves as superior to everyone else in the world. Why would anyone really be drawn to you and your church when you look down on everyone who isn't a part of you. Do you really not get it? You sit on your Rameumptom and preach how great you are, and don't understand you are not better than us or the rest of the world. Get over yourselves.

Please understand that there is no one right path. The path we have freely chosen is where we are happy, where we choose to be, where we are free to be us.

 Do not put any more barriers between you and us by attempting to rescue us, seeing us as sinners, frail, weak, lost, mediocre, apathetic, full of fear, or ignorant.

Box of Crayons

I have come to define what morality is very differently over the last several years.

I have come to view the world like a box of crayons, full of colors instead of just a black and white crayon.

I was raised to believe that every decision was simple; yes/no, right/wrong, black/white, following rules set by religion.

I do not believe this any more.  Making a moral decision any more, is based on treating people with kindness, being happy, making decisions that do not harm others. For example, it is more important that I spend time with my family than serving in a church calling where I am not with my family.

I have made some important life decisions lately that make me very happy. Yet, I am not able to share these decisions with my family.  Why? Because my family will not be happy for me.  If these decisions make me happy, then why won't my family be happy for me?  Because my family makes decisions based on an absolute moral judgement of black/white and right/wrong.  They will judge me, criticize me, condemn me.  

I hope that one day my happiness will be placed above a set of outdated religious rules.  Until then, I will continue to be estranged from those people who are supposed to love me unconditionally.

It's about...time

There will be a BBC interview of Jeffery Holland that will be presented in the USA sometime before November, 2012.  Here is a link to a summary of it:
http://www.cityweekly.net/utah/blog-24-7707-bbc-interview-with-lds-leader-earns-controversy.html

Some of the highlights:
*Holland is asked if Joseph Smith was arrested and convicted. At first Holland says, "I have no idea. When the interviewer says there is an actual court record, Holland backs down and says it is incidental to his character.  By the way, here is the link to that document supporting his arrest and conviction:
http://byulaw.blogspot.com/2005/09/joseph-smiths-arrest-records-found.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzKm7rBhTBQ

*Holland is asked if Romney had covenanted in the temple to slit his throat rather than tell what he learned in the temple.  This did in fact existed in the temple up until 1990 and was then taken out.  Since Romney had in fact gone through the temple before 1990, he would have made these oaths.  When pressed, he attempts to back down.

*The church spokesman, when at first asked about the Strengthening the members committee, at first denied any knowledge about it.  When pressed, said he knew about it, but couldn't give any information about it.  When Holland was asked about it, he said its primary purpose was to protect against polygamy.  Do you know what its primary purpose is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strengthening_Church_Members_Committee
http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_scmc.html
http://peace-in-paradise.blogspot.com/2012/05/strengthening-church-members-committee.html

*Holland was asked if the church practices shunning. He said he would not shun a child.  All I can say to that is I have several family members who will not speak to me because I am no longer a member of the church.  I am estranged from the rest of them.  My  now ex-husband told me he would not support me when I told him I could no longer attend the mormon church. Seems like shunning to me.

Can the church stand up to scrutiny? Its about time the media asked these hard questions.

Closed System

Everyone has a need to belong, its part of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.  When we belong to any social group, be it a family or an organization, we can often make rational decisions about how we think or feel within that system.  An open system allows for logic, reason, and the sharing of emotions.  A closed system does does not allow for dissent or expression of the individual.
http://www.exmormon.org/pattern/dbmormon.htm

There are 7 stages to a closed system and the emotions attached.

Stage 1: A question is asked to a presented problem, but no real answers are given. The result is anxiety.
If a person is looking to buy a home, they research; look at many options, ask lots of questions, bring in an appraiser, and feel satisfied they are getting what they are paying for.  For many people this doesn't happen, however.  A person has a loss, such as the loss of a child; and they feel vulnerable. In step the missionaries who give them hope. There is no real investigation into all religions or beliefs.

Stage 2: The agreement. The resulting emotion is ambiguity.  This is also known as the Yes-But 
*A person's patriarch blessing says they will get married and have lots of children. They can't conceive. They are told they will have children in the life here-after.
*A person is told if the pay tithing they will be blessed.  They struggle financially.  They are told their blessings are not of the material kind.
*A person develops cancer and receives a blessing that they will be healed.  They continue to deteriorate.  They are told they need to have more faith.
*A person is told if they wear their garments they will be protected.  They are injured in a car accident.  They are told the injuries would have been worse if they hadn't been wearing their garments.
*A person prays to have a testimony. They do not receive a burning in their bossom. They are told they need to pray more and have more faith.

When there is no direct answers, the result is
Stage 3: Identity Crisis. The resulting emotion is confusion and ambiguity.
... in order to become worthy, eventually, you must take an oath that all you own, including yourself, belongs to the Church; this is the hidden part of the meat of the original contract. Once received, the Church promises to give back to you, as a gift, that which you had formerly owned ... if you become worthy ... at some point in the unknown future.

This is a crucial stage; it is the wedge that opens the door to a the final voluntary loss of Identity. It begins with an insertion into the agreement of a "But."  http://www.exmormon.org/pattern/2stage3.htm

 Stage 4: The Double-bind. The resulting emotions are guilt and fear.
A promise was made back in stage one, but instead of being fulfilled, in stages two and three, a BUT was put in its place.  Now there is an excuse for not receiving the promise.  The burden is now put on the individual for not receiving the promise. They are made to feel guilty for not doing what they are supposed to do for not receiving the promise.  They are made to feel fear if they do not hold up some end of a bargain to eternity to gain the promise.

This is the double bind; damned if you do and damned if you don't.
*IF you received a burning in your bosom, you now have to work to remain worthy of that; IF you don't work to retain that you will lose your reward and be damned.
  IF you didn't receive the burning in your bosom, you don't have enough faith.

*IF you have sex before marriage, you are violating your body.
 IF you don't have sex, you are evil, since you are commanded to have children.

*IF you speak of the temple oaths, you will be damned
  IF you don't speak of them, are silenced by guilt and fear and are going against yourself.

*IF you educate yourself as a woman, as the D&C says, you are increasing in intelligence
 IF you educate yourself as a woman, you are violating the counsel to only be a wife and mother

Boyd P. Packer said that reason is the enemy of God, and a state of war has been declared against it. He says, "In an effort to be objective, impartial, and scholarly, a writer or a teacher may unwittingly be giving equal time to the adversary... In the Church we are not neutral. We are one-sided. There is a war going on, and we are engaged in it." (From his talk: Do not spread disease germs!) The Closed System is "one-sided" (only non-brain faith is allowed). On the one hand, it turns its back on reason, the Open System; on the other hand, it claims "reason" in "lip service." The dual personality in Mormonism is the "Yes," reason, "But," at the same time, it is "non-reason."  http://www.exmormon.org/pattern/stage4.htm

Stage 5: Denial. The resulting emotion is Humiliation.
There is no more individuality, only the body of the organization.  There is no more unique thought, only the group think.  There is no more questioning or critical thought. There is only silence, obedience and denial.  Words like, 'paradise, new world order, Zion, the Elite, sacred not secret' are used.

But the leaders are only the man behind the curtain, pretending the something that they are not.  There is a Zig to the Zag.

The Zig: The organization is family oriented. The Zag: If you leave the organization, then you leave the family behind, and you will lose your family forever.

The Zig: People feel they have a place to fit in when they join.  The Zag: People who don't belong are ostracized and there's a feeling of elitism within the ranks of those within.

The Zig: The glory of god is intelligenge.  The Zag: Don't look outside official sources for knowledge, they may be evil.

The Zig: faith is the essence. The Zag: Obedience above all else.

Stage 6: Accusation; we can never be good forever, so when we fail, it leads to the emotions of guilt and shame.

In other Christian religions, they believe that Jesus' grace covers sin; works do not get us into heaven.  When it is our works that get us into heaven, it is up to us, the YES-BUT
When we fail to fully live up to the BUT part, the result is guilt and shame.  It just isn't possible to do all that is asked.

There is a bait and switch.  We are taught one thing in the church, (the bait) then an entirely different thing in the temple (the switch). Here is how one person presents it:  "The first time I personally ever had doubts was when I went to the temple for the first time in the l980s. The whole concept of the temple was a great thing I thought at the time. Here I could be sealed to my family forever. Here I could help others who never had a chance to receive "ordinances" necessary for salvation receive them. When I actually went through to get my own endowment however, I was horrified by what went on, but I didn't say anything--similar to many Mormons. Not only was there nothing spiritual about the experience, the way the endowment is presented smells of cultism. You are instructed early on in the endowment that you can withdrawal rather than go through the ceremony. Of course no one withdrawals because you have no idea what is going to happen, you have your family and friends all sitting around you, and nothing has happened yet to incline anyone to withdrawal. The next thing you know, you have taken a series of vows in unison with everyone else which hardly resemble anything you normally do in your LDS experience. Before 1990, you also had extreme penalties or "bloody oaths" associated with the violation of any of these vows." 
Post #12   http://www.exmormon.org/pattern/stage6.htm

Stage 7: Punishment. The resulting emotion is subjection/compulsion.

If a member feels the compulsion to leave the group, the result will be shaming that member by telling them they have sinned, they will never know happiness, they will not be a part of the group.

Abandonment, depression, suicide for not conforming are common.

Stage 8: Voluntary Union: Love/Hate is the resulting emotions.

If acceptance of the group is the result, the brain washing is the result and a person loses their individuality for good.

Stage 9: Cannibalism. The resulting emotion is suicide.

This is the most real quote: "The LDS church claims to be led by men of God. They are supposed to receive direct revelation from Him. Yet this is a church that turns away from the needs of both its men and its women, a church that will not acknowledge the child abuse/incest that goes on between some of its members--abuse that destroys children and steals their childhood, that creates wounds they carry the rest of their lives. Women in the church--some women, by no means all--are just as scarred and scared, just as abused. Yet those in authority will not deal with these issues. Nor will they deal with women who feel it extremely unfair that they are still to be "subservient" to their husbands, that they are not equal to their husbands, not even in the eyes of the LDS God. Mormonism is a patriarchy. For some, this is an acceptable way to live. For others, it's a torture chamber. Their treatment of homosexuals seeking help is appalling. While I am not gay, I was involved with a gay member of the church, and the hell he was put through--even as he begged for help--was appalling. Instead of self-acceptance for EVERY member, the church teaches conditional love ... To claim that it's God's will that people be hurt this way is emotionally, mentally and spiritually abusive."

Post #69 See: Stages 2-3, 4, 5. #69.   http://www.exmormon.org/pattern/stage9.htm

Fear and shame and guilt are no way to run an organization.

Love and acceptance and an open system.

Perfection?

In the mormon church, we were told, 'be ye therefore perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect.'

Even though we were told this was not to be something to be  achieved in this life, everyone still expected everyone else to pretend to be perfect.

The definition of what it meant to be perfect was also very narrowly defined.

A young man named Henry who lived in California tried so desperately to be perfect.  But you see, he was also gay.  You can't be gay and perfect in the mormon church.  He tried so hard to change being gay.  He couldn't, so he did what so many other gay youth in the mormon church are doing-- he committed suicide.  http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1975981914/a-stranger-at-the-table-why-god-hates-gay-mormons

Although I cannot completely understand his struggle, since I have never questioned my sexual orientation, I do understand his struggle with the concept of trying to be perfect, and especially such a narrow view of what perfection is; and if you can't be perfect, pretend to be something that you are not.

Not being your authentic self, leads to frustration, disappointment in yourself, a life of sadness and unhappiness. Like so many people discover, it leads to suicide or attempts at suicide.

I know how it feels to strive for perfection and always failing; never being good enough for the church or your family; always trying to be someone you are not and feeling as though your authentic self is not good enough for the church, your family or god.

The mantra to be perfect is at odds with loving yourself and others.

If Only

If only one could find peace in the mormon religion.
If only one could do all that was asked of one to reach the mormon heaven.
If only one could find happiness in the mormon church.

If only:
http://www.afterallwecando.com/

Not Good for Females

I have repeatedly said that one of the main reasons I left the morg is because it is not a good place for women.

I have given my personal story of how I have been harmed by misogynistic leadership.  I have heard so many women who have shared similar storied to mine.  The pat answer I get back is that *the church is perfect, the leadership is not*. This is so completely lame, it doesn't deem a response. However, since I hear it so often, I will respond.

If the church were indeed receiving guidance from god, then it would not be making poor choices, repeatedly, that harm a large group of people over a long period of time.

If the church were indeed receiving guidance from god, then its leadership would be making choices that were god-like, not human-like.

If the church were indeed receiving guidance from god, then its choices would reflect equality, love and acceptance, not judgement, condemnation and subjugation.

People would not be leaving in droves due to pain and disillusion.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52448399-78/moon-church-abuse-report.html.csp

If I Were God

If I were God

If I were God would I...
Make one man suffer for all the wrongs and sins of others?
Create humans in my image then call them unnatural and an enemy to myself?
Create humans in a fallen state when I call them the pinnacle of my creations?
Give them emotions and then say half those emotions are evil?
Give them reason and logic and then tell them to blindly obey?
Kill my creations through floods, earthquakes and tsunami's?
Create disease, birth defects and life long pain and suffering?
Give commandments to only a portion of my people that
are a requirement to return to my presence
thus damming the rest of my creations
to hell for simply being born to the
wrong parents and wrong
country and wrong
century?

A Wasted Life

I tried to be the Mormon that was expected of me. I just cleaned out a 4-drawer filing cabinet full of files from F.A.R.M.'s articles, lessons I taught from 20 years as a gospel doctrine teacher; ideas as an activities leader, and 100 family home evening lesson that I spent one year and several hundred dollars putting together.

I accepted every calling that was asked of me. I was a stay at home mother for 15 years despite the fact that it was against my personality and I resented being it. I was a square peg in a round hole. There was only one way to be a Mormon woman. It was okay for the husband to neglect me, to abuse me. It was not okay for me to walk away.  When I began to openly question if this was really God's plan for me, I realized that a loving God would not require me to suffer such abuse. That He would not require only one way to live. Why would a loving God make me have desires to serve people in the real world then say I can only serve by putting together an activity lesson? It was silly, trite, absurd to say that I could not do good in the world like I am now, working with children with disabilities. I feel fulfilled, content, happy. I never felt any of that serving in the church.

The church told women like me that we were selfish for desiring to work outside the home. I do not feel selfish. I could only clean my house so much. It was linear work- I never received pay, a promotion, or was told I had done a good job, let alone a pay raise. I never felt I was accomplishing anything. I could only change so many diapers, clean so much, do so many crafts. There are women who love it, enjoy it, are fulfilled by it--I just wasn't one of them.  Then, when the children were in school, I tried to have the talk with the husband about going back to work part time. No go. He would not even discuss it with me. He walked out of the room when I brought up the topic.

Each. And. Every. Time.             For five years.

I was only good for cooking his meals, cleaning his house, taking care of his needs. I had to beg for money. I had no access to the checking account balance, to the finances. I was a servant. I existed for his pleasure. He was having no change in his status.  This was going to be my future. This is Mormon heaven. Good for the men. Bad for the women.

A wasted life. That is what it is. I wasted my life trying to do what other's told me to do instead of what I wanted and desired. Sad.

Cover your Ass

The Mormon church is already changing BKP's talk. I am publishing the original and the changes to hold them accountable:

The version spoken in conference can be found here :

We teach the standard of moral conduct that will protect us from Satan’s many substitutes and counterfeits for marriage. We must understand that any persuasion to enter into any relationship that is not in harmony with the principles of the gospel must be wrong. From The Book of Mormon we learn that wickedness never was happiness. Some suppose that they were preset  and cannot overcome what they feel are inborn tendencies toward the impure and unnatural. Not so. Why would our Heavenly Father do that to anyone? Remember, he is our Father.

The version now on the churches website: edited version   We teach a standard of moral conduct that will protect us from Satan’s many substitutes or counterfeits for marriage. We must understand that any persuasion to enter into any relationship that is not in harmony with the principles of the gospel must be wrong. From the Book of Mormon we learn that “wickedness never was happiness.”

Some suppose that they were preset and cannot overcome what they feel are inborn temptations toward the impure and unnatural. Not so! Why would our Heavenly Father do that to anyone? (deleted) Remember, God is our Heavenly Father.

Since I am writing, I want to add this; think for yourselves, think reasonable, be rational, ask questions. If something smells bad, ask why.

*I asked why. This is what I came up with: BKP said that god would not do that to people. Well:

Here is some information on what god has done to people:

http://www.angelman.org/

http://www.fragilex.org/html/home.shtml

http://www.ndss.org/

http://www.cff.org/

https://health.google.com/health/ref/Muscular+dystrophy

http://www.medicinenet.com/leukemia/article.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite

If this loving God  wouldn't make someone gay, why would he make someone have Angelman's, where they are non-verbal, they have joint problems, they are violent toward their loved ones, they have difficulty learning and have low IQ, they have difficulty eating and swallowing and sleeping. The cannot sweat well and sunburn easily. They will have to be taken care of their entire lives. They cannot dress themselves without help, brush their teeth without help, sit or sometimes walk without help.

*He says that being gay is unnatural. He goes on to say that the natural man is an enemy to god. You can't have it both ways. Is it unnatural or natural? Are we as humans natural or unnatural? Which way? Confusion and conflict. 

*He says you cannot vote against the law of gravity. Has he never heard of the 3 laws of motion that govern flight? There are higher laws that allow birds and planes to overcome gravity, Mr. Packer! Know your science! There are also gay animals in all species. When an animal species is facing extinction or other extreme conditions, there is an increase in homosexuality. Homosexuality is born, not a choice, science has shown that time and again. Here is a link:
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/24596/#434109


I want to add my own personal story. When I was in college, one teacher had several students come into one of my classes. They gave their own personal stories of being gay. It was moving and emotional. After the class, I was confused, as I had been told my entire life that being gay was a choice but the stories just told where the opposite. I sought out my teacher. I told her I was having difficulty relating to the experiences just shared with the class. I told the teacher that I had never questioned my sexual identity. Her response, "exactly." That was an epiphany to me. If I never questioned my sexual identity, then how audacious was it for me to assume that people who are gay should have to question theirs.  


The Mormon church continues to say that being gay can be cured. This is their idea of trying to 'cure being gay' http://www.suite101.com/content/byu-electroshock-aversion-therapy-a33025
If God wants the Mormon church to cure being gay, then why hasn't he revealed to BKP how to do it? Electroshock treatments didn't work, behavior modification being used in an organization called Evergreen isn't working.

Where's your revelations, profits? Where?

Fear

I sit on the couch, surrounded by 4 men; the estranged husband and 3 church leaders. I thought that one of these men were on my side. Was I wrong. I had been struggling with what to believe about the Mormon Church.; I was having a crisis of faith. I had found out things. Terrible things and am struggling because of what I have learned. I had bishops admit to me that they do not make church callings based on being directed by the Holy Ghost as they tell everyone they do; but in fact what is easy, practical, logical, popular. I had told the estranged husband I wanted to attend some other Christian church. He told me he wouldn't follow me there. I had already decided that the Mormon Church could not be true but was keeping these thoughts to myself. I was not attending church. I was not raising my hand and sustaining these church men as my leaders. I had not renewed my temple recommend. I find out later that these men sitting in my house are not here to help me and support me through my crisis of faith, but to apply pressure. I found out later that the estranged husband has been in private communication with these men, turning them against me. Something he would continue to do with future bishops.

The one with the most power, the one who I thought was on my side, speaks. He tells me that I must submit to the husband and the bishop. I am shocked. He had previously told me that he was in my corner. I feel humiliated and horrified. I have been feeling lost and completely alone and have felt I have nowhere to turn and now the one man I thought would support me has turned on me. I tell him "No." I stand up and walk out. I am shattered. My sister once said that what others perceived as a breakdown was in fact a breakthrough. That is what this moment was for me. I got in my car and drove. I didn't know what I was going to do. My marriage was in a shambles. I didn't know where my faith was going to go from this point. I didn't have anyone to turn to; I felt I had no path to walk, I felt lost and all alone. This was the loneliest and lowest point in my life. In that car ride; I began to forge a new path. I turn around and drive back home.

Nobody likes to be forced into a corner with no options but to submit to another person's will. These men think they can use fear to get me to do what they want when love and acceptance would be the wiser choice. I decide from that moment on that I would not submit to fear; fear of losing my eternal reward (what god would have us follow him based on fear?); fear of losing my family; fear of losing everything unless I submitted to fallible men?

The definition of submit is:

sub·mit

  –verb (used with object)

1. to give over or yield to the power or authority of another.

2. to subject to some kind of treatment or influence.

3. to present for the approval, consideration, or decision of another or others: to submit a  plan; to submit anapplication.

4. to state or urge with deference; suggest or propose (usuallyfol. by a clause): I submit  that full proof should be required.

Why is a man’s opinion, power or authority of any more value than mine? A man is as fallible as I am. Does being male make him more intelligent, his opinion, his power any better than mine?  I cannot understand submitting to another man who is as fallible as I am, who is as easily prone to mistakes as I am.  I cannot understand submitting to someone who is prone to controlling and manipulating.  We can teach each other and learn from each other, but we should not be required to submit to another.